[Discuss-sudbury-model] RE: Discuss-sudbury-model digest, Vol 1 #334 - 4 msgs

From: Mydlack, Daniel J. <dmydlack_at_towson.edu>
Date: Wed Dec 14 12:34:03 2005

Hi Jesse,

A little perspective: There are perhaps millions of children growing themselves up in supremely dangerous environments. Please do check out this link:

http://www.infochangeindia.org/ChildrenIstory.jsp?section_idv=4&storyofchangev=ChildrenIstory.jsp

Danny

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-sudbury-model-admin_at_sudval.org
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Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 10:52 AM
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Subject: Discuss-sudbury-model digest, Vol 1 #334 - 4 msgs

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: eating (Arlynn Liebster)
   2. RE: "For the child's own good"? (Jesse Gallagher)
   3. Re: "For the child's own good"? (Richard Berlin)
   4. RE: "For the child's own good"? (Marilu Diaz)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:46:06 -0500
From: Arlynn Liebster <abfab_at_abfabinc.com>
To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org
Organization: Abfab
Subject: [Discuss-sudbury-model] Re: eating
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

For a 6 yo child to be eating so much candy/sugar that it is getting
overweight is in my opinion that there is a greater dynamic happening in
that family than just some ill informed people giving the child candy. What
has happened to the child's internal regulation of when to stop eating upon
fullness? What has happened to the child's innate ability to determine
healthful foods vs. occasional sweet treats? That family needs to look
particularly close at their issues with respecting their dd's internal
controls and stop imposing external controls on her. Imposing external
controls on a child's eating can start in early infancy and is always
detrimental to the child. It teaches the child to *ignore* their own
internal signals of fullness and wellness and to rely on external factors
such as parents forcing food on them and parents imposing when the child is
allowed to eat and when the child is not (it's not dinner time, no you are
not allowed to eat an apple now it will spoil your appetite). In this
example, the apple is a healthful food and the child is hungry *now*. Why
not respect the child and allow her to decide when to eat based on her
internal nutritional needs? I am suggesting that her proper internal
controls were ignored by her food providers by either forcing another ounce
of formula (to finish the bottle) or cajolling her into eating one last bite
(b/c the jar of baby food wasn't finished and it would be a shame to waste
it) or witholding food as punishment for some imagined household
crime/breaking a rule (you go to bed without your supper for breaking mom's
vase), stuff like that disrespected her as an infant/toddler and now she has
no external control on her eating b/c her parents are not always in the
vicinity to stop her food intake and no internal control on her eating b/c
she was taught to completely ignore it. It is important to somehow get that
*respect* back into her for her own fullness (so she does not overeat) and
that has to start with the parents b/c that's where the disrespect started
IMO.

My son at 2 yo will always choose an organic apple (peeled and cored and cut
up for him) over an overprocessed white flour hydrogenated oil containing
cookie. When well-meaning people hand him this type of cookie, he has put
the cookie down or given it to the dog and picked up the apple I leave on a
snack tray available at all times for the kids to graze on during the day
with healthful options for them (cut up fruit, raisins, cheese cubes, pieces
of organic nitrate-free ham, pizza with whole grain crust, raw baby carrots,
wedges of toasted cheese sandwiches; the assortment is pleasing to look at
and varies by the day). He sees that this cookie is not a treat to him or
his body, he is aware of what really healthful food tastes like and his
tastebuds crave the real food, not the imitation junk. We call pumpkin
muffins to be cake in our house. They are organic and sweetened, but really
healthy and are a nice treat sometimes. These he loves! But when he has had
enough, he will put the remainder down and not eat more than is enough for
him. *All his life we have honored that he knows how much to feed his body.*
I nor his father have ever cajolled him into eating something he didn't want
or eating more before being allowed to leave the table or being punished for
going to the refrigerator and taking out a carton of milk and drinking it (I
ask him if I can help him by pouring some into a cup and this he is grateful
for). This is basic respect that this child of ours *knows* what his body
needs. Now that he has more options available to him, he still chooses the
delicious healthful options and not the options that cause *dis-ease* of the
body and in quantities that only he can know are the correct quantity to
fill his hunger.

Sugar bingeing oftentimes masks a lack of sufficient protein in the diet. My
first suggestion is to add more protein to her diet and see if she doesn't
lay off of the sugar on her own. Also, give it a lot of planning and work on
it daily to have healthful, delicious things for her to eat. A really ripe
pear, cut up baby carrots with ranch dressing for dipping, a peeled apple
with a bit of caramel to dip the slices in, cut up bananas rolled in a bit
of chocolate and coconut, toasted cheese sandwiches cut up in wedges, pizza
ww bagels with a bit of cooked chopped meat on the top for protein, for
snacks. It involves sugar in moderation, tastes great, involves fresh
delicious food and she might come to realize that she wants to learn more
about healthful choices and feeding her whole body, not just her tastebuds.

--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:04:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Jesse Gallagher <fomajes_at_yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Discuss-sudbury-model] "For the child's own good"?
To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

--0-1922394860-1134536674=:26949
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Let's not lose our perspective.
 
 These *are* children, and as such, they are under our care until they are able to care for themselves.
 
 Pure and untrammelled autonomy is a lovely idea, but children left to their own devices rarely grow to adulthood. Today's world is simply too dangerous, in too many ways.
 
 What we're looking for here is balance. How much freedom can I give my children while still ensuring that they have every opportunity to live out the day, and, hopefully, develop healthy habits that will allow them to live a long and fruitful life of autonomous experimentation and exploration?
 
 I can't always reason that answer out, but I can almost always *feel* what the right answer is. Trust your heart, even if it tells you to limit your child's freedom. Your heart is never wrong, whereas countless well-reasoned theories have done untold damage to millions of children.
 
 What's the worst that happens? You err on the side of caution and leave your kids with a few more guidelines to unlearn than they would have had if you were the "perfect parent". If your errors keep them healthy and out of harm's way, it's worth it.
 
 And the trust factor? Are you teaching them that they're not worthy of your trust? No way. Your kids will know that you trust them with most matters and *want* to trust them in the ones that you're simply not able to. They're not stupid--they'll understand that the shortcomings are yours and not theirs. Tell them if you're not sure they understand the subtext. Don't sweat it.
 
 They aren't expecting perfection from you just as you're not expecting perfection from them. Why not give them the opportunity to show you the same respect that you show them? Let them give you the opportunity to be yourself, which means being wrong once in a while. They'll never forget it.
 
 It doesn't make sense to me that we expend exceptional energies to provide our children with the opportunities and the surroundings that empower them to learn who they are and what they're about--which they learn almost exclusively through trial and error--but we deny ourselves the same opportunies as parents and in the process deprive them of adult role models for the very choices we want them to be able to make. It's an odd case of "do as I say, not as I do", sort of turned on its head, but it amounts to the same thing.
 
 Maybe my perspective has been unduly colored by unschooling my own children. Fact is, it's impossible to unschool your children without unschooling yourself at the same time.
 
 You know how it goes: "Take chances, make mistakes, get messy."
 
 Today's revolutionary motto...
 
 Best,
 
 Jesse
 
 
                        
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
 Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--0-1922394860-1134536674=:26949
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Let's not lose our perspective.<br> <br> These *are* children, and as such, they are under our care until they are able to care for themselves.<br> <br> Pure and untrammelled autonomy is a lovely idea, but children left to their own devices rarely grow to adulthood.&nbsp; Today's world is simply too dangerous, in too many ways.<br> <br> What we're looking for here is balance.&nbsp; How much freedom can I give my children while still ensuring that they have every opportunity to live out the day, and, hopefully, develop healthy habits that will allow them to live a long and fruitful life of autonomous experimentation and exploration?<br> <br> I can't always reason that answer out, but I can almost always *feel* what the right answer is.&nbsp; Trust your heart, even if it tells you to limit your child's freedom.&nbsp; Your heart is never wrong, whereas countless well-reasoned theories have done untold damage to millions of children.<br> <br> What's the worst that happens?&nbsp;!
 You err
 on the side of caution and leave your kids with a few more guidelines to unlearn than they would have had if you were the "perfect parent".&nbsp; If your errors keep them healthy and out of harm's way, it's worth it.<br> <br> And the trust factor?&nbsp; Are you teaching them that they're not worthy of your trust?&nbsp; No way.&nbsp; Your kids will know that you trust them with most matters and *want* to trust them in the ones that you're simply not able to.&nbsp; They're not stupid--they'll understand that the shortcomings are yours and not theirs.&nbsp; Tell them if you're not sure they understand the subtext.&nbsp; Don't sweat it.<br> <br> They aren't expecting perfection from you just as you're not expecting perfection from them.&nbsp; Why not give them the opportunity to show you the same respect that you show them?&nbsp; Let them give you the opportunity to be yourself, which means being wrong once in a while.&nbsp; They'll never forget it.<br> <br> It doesn't make sen!
se to me
 that we expend exceptional energies to provide our children with the opportunities and the surroundings that empower them to learn who they are and what they're about--which they learn almost exclusively through trial and error--but we deny ourselves the same opportunies as parents and in the process deprive them of adult role models for the very choices we want them to be able to make.&nbsp; It's an odd case of "do as I say, not as I do", sort of turned on its head, but it amounts to the same thing.<br> <br> Maybe my perspective has been unduly colored by unschooling my own children.&nbsp; Fact is, it's impossible to unschool your children without unschooling yourself at the same time.<br> <br> You know how it goes: "Take chances, make mistakes, get messy."<br> <br> Today's revolutionary motto...<br> <br> Best,<br> <br> Jesse<br> <br> <p>
        
                <hr size=1>Yahoo! Shopping<br>
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/footer/shopping/*http://shopping.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTE2bzVzaHJtBF9TAzk1OTQ5NjM2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFnBHNsawNob2xpZGF5LTA1
">Yahoo! Shopping</a>
--0-1922394860-1134536674=:26949--

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: Richard Berlin <rberlin_at_pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [Discuss-sudbury-model] "For the child's own good"?
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:47:14 -0800
To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

On Dec 13, 2005, at 4:44 PM, Marilu Diaz wrote:

> When it comes to diet there may be clear threats that we must address,
> such
> as chronic health family history (diabetes/hypoglycemia, obesity,
> etc.) in
> addition to well known health offenders (smoke, carcinogens, etc, etc,
> etc).
> My daughter is 6 year old and already addicted to refined sugars via
> birthday parties and the typical well intentioned people everywhere
> that
> keep offering her candy. EVERYONE in my family has some kind of
> related
> condition (diabetes or hypoglycemia, including child diabetes in all my
> nieces/nephews). In addition, my daughter is becoming overweight.
> Should I
> keep letting her choose her fate? How far should her freedom go,
> since she
> does not understand the long term consequence of her binges?

I'm in the same boat--overweight child, sugar sensitivities all
throughout his ancestry--and it worries me greatly. (Parenthetically,
he was a fabulously healthy eater until about 3 years old, *despite*
being fed garbage at daycare.) Even with the reassurance from his
teacher--who says his weight is not limiting his participation in any
way--it's hard work for me to control *my* anxiety instead of *his*
food intake. But the emerging model for controlling childhood obesity
is "trust," not "control," and with good reason, I think.

In the short run, my attempts at control would be limited by my reach.
When he's actually with me, I could theoretically exert complete
control (at some emotional cost, which I estimate to be quite high) but
as he gets older he's with me less and less. With significant effort,
I might be able to prevent most of the other adults he comes in contact
with from giving him sugar or white flour (again, at some emotional
cost). As long as feeding him white foods does not result in a medical
emergency, however, those other caregivers are unlikely to maintain a
high level of vigilance, and stuff is going to sneak through the
cracks. A few years ago, someone fed my child leavened foods on
Passover: the teachers were respectfully complying with our requests,
e.g. giving him the alternate snacks we provided, but they were
blind-sided by a parent who show up with "Easter goodies" and handed
them out without asking anyone.

In the long run, what is the attitude or relationship to food that is
going to serve my child best? And is my exerting strict control going
to help or hinder the development of that attitude? Sooner or later,
"my parent won't let me eat that" will fail to be sufficient basis for
a decision. And if the food has been given "forbidden" status--which
frequently enhances its emotional hold--I would not be surprised to see
binges, secretive eating, hoarding...yecch.

So on both counts, strict parental control strikes me as a losing
proposition. The pediatrician probably *wants* me to control
everything my son eats, but it's just too easy for her to give advice
that she doesn't have to implement herself. (Nor must she live with
the consequences on a daily basis; do you know *anyone* who doesn't get
cranky when calories are restricted?) Besides, my goal as a parent is
not simply to control the obesity *now*; it's to give my child the
ability to control it throughout his life. That calls for a nuanced
strategy, not brute force.

Our child is the only person who is there 100% of the time; it only
makes sense that we are better off applying our effort to his
decision-making *process* rather than his decisions. That doesn't mean
we have given up all responsibility for his health, but it does mean
rejecting the notion that we can make his eating decisions for him.
We express our concerns, respectfully and repeatedly. Since his
internal controls are evidently faulty, we frequently ask him to tune
in to his body, e.g. "Is your tummy empty, partly full, or full?" When
he goes for his third serving of the same food, we might say "It
doesn't look like that's satisfying you. Perhaps you'd like to try
something else?" We remind him that eating fruits and veggies will
help him avoid constipation, which he fears, and encourage him to
regain his adventurous attitude towards new foods, which seems to have
gone by the wayside lately. We read packages for him and show him what
a "serving size" is. We pack lunch for him, ensuring that there is
always a fruit, a vegetable, and a protein. And we refuse to be
complicit in decisions we disagree with: we negotiate with him when
shopping, but we won't agree to loading up the cart (or the house) with
junk food.

There are encouraging signs that this strategy is helping over time.

As I am first drafting this (about 6:00 PM) he wants macaroni and
cheese, even though he is intending to have a hamburger for dinner. I
pointed out that this was probably more than his tummy could handle.
He weighed his immediate hunger against the fact that he wants to eat
hamburgers with his mom (a picnic in the car) and my stated opinion
that eating two full entrees within half an hour of one another would
be too much food. Without any further prompting from me he came up
with his own out-of-the-box solution: he is now distracting himself by
playing videographer.

He also knows that there can be unseen health effects of food and that,
just as he sees his parents avoiding foods that make them sick, he may
need to do the same. His favorite food is sushi, but one day I weighed
the fish portions, calculated out how much he was eating, and was
alarmed at the amount of mercury he could be consuming. I explained
very sympathetically what effects it might be having on his body and
why I did not want to buy it for him for a good long while. After some
grieving, he compromised on salmon sushi--which is safe from a mercury
perspective--and foregoes the other varieties that he used to eat, with
nary a complaint.

I can't claim that everything with him goes smoothly--far from it, I
think we have to put a lot more effort into parenting than most adults
we know--and he doesn't always make eating decisions perfectly. But
neither does any adult I know, so demanding perfection would be futile:
what we're looking for is a level of compliance that is healthful and
that he can live with. He has proven himself capable of making
rational decisions, about this and other things with regard to his
well-being: seat belt, sunscreen, coat....

Our son is five (And a half! he would add). I offer that as purely
theoretic evidence that your six year old might be similarly
capable--given favorable circumstances--and therefore you could have
middle ground open to you, somewhere between "letting her choose her
fate" and denying "her freedom."

Best regards and good luck to you both,

-- Rich

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

       . | "But there must be a way | .
      (i) | To have our children say: | (%)
    CC @ 33 | | CC @ 33
    (e) (:) | 'There are so many colors in a rainbow | (?) (})
     ` \ ' | So many colors in the morning sun | ` \ '
       | | So many colors in a flower | |
     \ | / | And I see every one.'" | \ | /
      \|/ | | \|/
     ~~~~~ | -- Harry Chapin, "Flowers are Red" | ~~~~~
     

--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Marilu Diaz" <madiaz_at_puertorico.fcb.com>
To: <discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org>
Subject: RE: [Discuss-sudbury-model] "For the child's own good"?
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:53:38 -0400
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

Thanks for your insight. I agree that otherwise than trust it turns into a
struggle (which is no way to achieve anything short or long term). I was
overweight as a child and suffered chronic constipation through my late
teens when I discovered vegetarianism and decided to research and embrace
it. Since I regret my diet choices as a kid, I make sure I give my daughter
all the information I have on the consequences of her choices, and at the
end I'm starting to let her choose.
Marilu

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-sudbury-model-admin_at_sudval.org
[mailto:discuss-sudbury-model-admin_at_sudval.org] On Behalf Of Richard Berlin
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:47 AM
To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org
Subject: Re: [Discuss-sudbury-model] "For the child's own good"?

On Dec 13, 2005, at 4:44 PM, Marilu Diaz wrote:

> When it comes to diet there may be clear threats that we must address,
> such
> as chronic health family history (diabetes/hypoglycemia, obesity,
> etc.) in
> addition to well known health offenders (smoke, carcinogens, etc, etc,
> etc).
> My daughter is 6 year old and already addicted to refined sugars via
> birthday parties and the typical well intentioned people everywhere
> that
> keep offering her candy. EVERYONE in my family has some kind of
> related
> condition (diabetes or hypoglycemia, including child diabetes in all my
> nieces/nephews). In addition, my daughter is becoming overweight.
> Should I
> keep letting her choose her fate? How far should her freedom go,
> since she
> does not understand the long term consequence of her binges?

I'm in the same boat--overweight child, sugar sensitivities all
throughout his ancestry--and it worries me greatly. (Parenthetically,
he was a fabulously healthy eater until about 3 years old, *despite*
being fed garbage at daycare.) Even with the reassurance from his
teacher--who says his weight is not limiting his participation in any
way--it's hard work for me to control *my* anxiety instead of *his*
food intake. But the emerging model for controlling childhood obesity
is "trust," not "control," and with good reason, I think.

In the short run, my attempts at control would be limited by my reach.
When he's actually with me, I could theoretically exert complete
control (at some emotional cost, which I estimate to be quite high) but
as he gets older he's with me less and less. With significant effort,
I might be able to prevent most of the other adults he comes in contact
with from giving him sugar or white flour (again, at some emotional
cost). As long as feeding him white foods does not result in a medical
emergency, however, those other caregivers are unlikely to maintain a
high level of vigilance, and stuff is going to sneak through the
cracks. A few years ago, someone fed my child leavened foods on
Passover: the teachers were respectfully complying with our requests,
e.g. giving him the alternate snacks we provided, but they were
blind-sided by a parent who show up with "Easter goodies" and handed
them out without asking anyone.

In the long run, what is the attitude or relationship to food that is
going to serve my child best? And is my exerting strict control going
to help or hinder the development of that attitude? Sooner or later,
"my parent won't let me eat that" will fail to be sufficient basis for
a decision. And if the food has been given "forbidden" status--which
frequently enhances its emotional hold--I would not be surprised to see
binges, secretive eating, hoarding...yecch.

So on both counts, strict parental control strikes me as a losing
proposition. The pediatrician probably *wants* me to control
everything my son eats, but it's just too easy for her to give advice
that she doesn't have to implement herself. (Nor must she live with
the consequences on a daily basis; do you know *anyone* who doesn't get
cranky when calories are restricted?) Besides, my goal as a parent is
not simply to control the obesity *now*; it's to give my child the
ability to control it throughout his life. That calls for a nuanced
strategy, not brute force.

Our child is the only person who is there 100% of the time; it only
makes sense that we are better off applying our effort to his
decision-making *process* rather than his decisions. That doesn't mean
we have given up all responsibility for his health, but it does mean
rejecting the notion that we can make his eating decisions for him.
We express our concerns, respectfully and repeatedly. Since his
internal controls are evidently faulty, we frequently ask him to tune
in to his body, e.g. "Is your tummy empty, partly full, or full?" When
he goes for his third serving of the same food, we might say "It
doesn't look like that's satisfying you. Perhaps you'd like to try
something else?" We remind him that eating fruits and veggies will
help him avoid constipation, which he fears, and encourage him to
regain his adventurous attitude towards new foods, which seems to have
gone by the wayside lately. We read packages for him and show him what
a "serving size" is. We pack lunch for him, ensuring that there is
always a fruit, a vegetable, and a protein. And we refuse to be
complicit in decisions we disagree with: we negotiate with him when
shopping, but we won't agree to loading up the cart (or the house) with
junk food.

There are encouraging signs that this strategy is helping over time.

As I am first drafting this (about 6:00 PM) he wants macaroni and
cheese, even though he is intending to have a hamburger for dinner. I
pointed out that this was probably more than his tummy could handle.
He weighed his immediate hunger against the fact that he wants to eat
hamburgers with his mom (a picnic in the car) and my stated opinion
that eating two full entrees within half an hour of one another would
be too much food. Without any further prompting from me he came up
with his own out-of-the-box solution: he is now distracting himself by
playing videographer.

He also knows that there can be unseen health effects of food and that,
just as he sees his parents avoiding foods that make them sick, he may
need to do the same. His favorite food is sushi, but one day I weighed
the fish portions, calculated out how much he was eating, and was
alarmed at the amount of mercury he could be consuming. I explained
very sympathetically what effects it might be having on his body and
why I did not want to buy it for him for a good long while. After some
grieving, he compromised on salmon sushi--which is safe from a mercury
perspective--and foregoes the other varieties that he used to eat, with
nary a complaint.

I can't claim that everything with him goes smoothly--far from it, I
think we have to put a lot more effort into parenting than most adults
we know--and he doesn't always make eating decisions perfectly. But
neither does any adult I know, so demanding perfection would be futile:
what we're looking for is a level of compliance that is healthful and
that he can live with. He has proven himself capable of making
rational decisions, about this and other things with regard to his
well-being: seat belt, sunscreen, coat....

Our son is five (And a half! he would add). I offer that as purely
theoretic evidence that your six year old might be similarly
capable--given favorable circumstances--and therefore you could have
middle ground open to you, somewhere between "letting her choose her
fate" and denying "her freedom."

Best regards and good luck to you both,

-- Rich

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

       . | "But there must be a way | .
      (i) | To have our children say: | (%)
    CC @ 33 | | CC @ 33
    (e) (:) | 'There are so many colors in a rainbow | (?) (})
     ` \ ' | So many colors in the morning sun | ` \ '
       | | So many colors in a flower | |
     \ | / | And I see every one.'" | \ | /
      \|/ | | \|/
     ~~~~~ | -- Harry Chapin, "Flowers are Red" | ~~~~~
     

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