[Discuss-sudbury-model] help

From: Persaltum \(thuis\) <persaltum_at_tip.nl>
Date: Tue Oct 11 23:14:00 2005

Please unsubscribe

Thnx

Bert van der Neut

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Van: discuss-sudbury-model-admin_at_sudval.org
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Verzonden: woensdag 12 oktober 2005 3:10
Aan: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org
Onderwerp: Discuss-sudbury-model digest, Vol 1 #306 - 7 msgs

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Youth empowerment groups (Matthew Bauman)
   2. Unsubscribe (Cary)
   3. Re: compulsory element of sudbury model (Tay Arrow Sherman)
   4. Unsubscribe (Lora Peers)
   5. RE: compulsory element of sudbury model (Kamau 14)
   6. Re: For Bernard: French Sudbury texts? (frodon444)
   7. Re: Extreme examples of traditional schools (Karen Locke)

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Message: 1
From: "Matthew Bauman" <mattbau43_at_hotmail.com>
To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org
Subject: Re: [Discuss-sudbury-model] Youth empowerment groups
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:37:28 -0400
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

An action group. I am fully aware of the benefits of Sudbury schools.

<html><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#0000cc
size=2>Matthew Bauman</FONT><FONT face="Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"
color=#0000cc
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#cc0000
size=2>Machias, Maine </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#cc0000 size=2><A
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BluesMP3BootTrade/"></A></FONT>&nbsp;</D
IV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000
size=3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></html>

An action group. I a

<BLOCKQUOTE style='PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #A0C6E5

2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px'><font
style='FONT-SIZE:11px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma,sans-serif'><hr color=#A0C6E5
size=1>
From: <i>Tay Arrow Sherman &lt;tay_at_anatomyofhope.net&gt;</i><br>Reply-To:
<i>discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org</i><br>To:
<i>discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org</i><br>Subject: <i>Re:
[Discuss-sudbury-model] Youth empowerment groups</i><br>Date: <i>Tue, 11
Oct 2005 16:33:18 -0400</i><br>Matt--<br><br>Sudbury schools don't let kids
earn respect, they presume that kids should be respected. Are you asking
about a political activist type of group that promotes youth rights? Or a
way for a child to grow up that is empowered and does not involve an
institution that uses the word
&quot;school&quot;?<br><br>-Tay<br><br>-------------------------------------
--------------<br><br>http://www.tayarrowsherman.com/<br>http://www.olio-aca
demy.com/<br>><br>---------------------------------------------------<br><br
>_______________________________________________<br>Discuss-sudbury-model
mailing
list<br>Discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org<br>http://www.sudval.org/mailman/li
stinfo.cgi/discuss-sudbury-model<br></font></BLOCKQUOTE>m

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Message: 2
From: "Cary" <cary_at_3dkarting.com>
To: <discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org>
Subject: [Discuss-sudbury-model] Unsubscribe
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:41:28 -0400
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

Unsubscribe me please.

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Message: 3
From: Tay Arrow Sherman <tay_at_anatomyofhope.net>
Subject: Re: [Discuss-sudbury-model] compulsory element of sudbury model
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:46:21 -0400
To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

I don't think you can filter out life, or say that some aspects of life
are real and some are just a model of life.

It seems to me that the main thing you would definitely get out of
Sudbury schooling that you may or may not get out of unschooling is an
experience with a larger community.

Talking about drop-in attendance has had me thinking about the Sudbury
Valley School "tours". Maybe some of you have been on these. The school
offers tours for people who want to start up Sudbury schools. It's kind
of disruptive, but people in the school's community support it for a
number of reasons. So I am wondering if there are SVS students staff
or alumni who have any strong feelings about what it's like to be a
part of a community that is being "toured", and if there's anyone who
has done a "tour" who remembers how they felt about their relationship
to the SVS community while they were there.

When I visited SVS years after I graduated, I didn't know anyone but
the staff. I felt sort of disconnected-- it was GREAT to be there, but
also a little dreamlike. I always thought that all our "tourists"
seemed like they were sort of spaced out in a happy way, when I was
attending SVS, and as a returning adult I got the same way! It's
interesting. I feel connected to the SVS community in a really strong
way, but I know that because I am not "in the trenches", there is a
great thing I am missing out on that I wouldn't get back into without
immersion.

-Tay

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.tayarrowsherman.com/
http://www.olio-academy.com/

---------------------------------------------------

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Message: 4
From: Lora Peers <lora_at_tokay.com>
To: <discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:59:17 -0400
Subject: [Discuss-sudbury-model] Unsubscribe
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

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Please remove me from this list.

Lora McCoy
=A0

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<div><SPAN style=3D"font-family:'Arial';font-size:10pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN=
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Message: 5
From: "Kamau 14" <kamau14_at_hotmail.com>
To: <discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:04:47 -0700
Subject: [Discuss-sudbury-model] RE: compulsory element of sudbury model
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

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Ooh, I told myself not to jump in because of the time I don't have at the
moment, but this issue of compulsory attendance really gets me going. My son
goes to Windsor House in North Vancouver, in Canada. WH has been around for
about 35 years and has an age range of 5-18 years which fluctuates between
about 150 to 200 kids. Actually, if you include people's babies, parents,
friends, relatives and alumni who hang out and are part of our community,
then the age range is birth to old age, but technically, the registered
learners are 5 - 18. It is a parent participation, democratic school,
non-coercive school based on Sudbury Valley principles. Last year we had a
struggle to keep our public funding due to changed government laws and one
of the issues we absolutely went to the mat on was compulsory attendance -
no way are we willing to compromise on the issue of forcing children to
choose between all or nothing at our school. This is something kids, staff
and parents were unanimous about in our voting.

I won't get into the ideological issues right now about why we, as a school,
are so strongly opposed to compulsory full time attendance, but I'll talk a
little bit about how it works for us on a day to day basis and it works
well.

I am currently finishing a PH.D. in which I interviewed alumni from Windsor
House, some of whom are now in their 30's. Here is how different ex-students
talked about attendance (and I do think the most important voice here is the
students and what is important for them). Each quote is a different person:

"Going every day would have been too much. I liked going about twice a week,
that fit better with my rhythms and I liked to daydream and do my writing
from home. And I did lots of learning with my parents and aunt at home"
(this person is now an award winning novelist)

"We had family meetings where we talked about what we all needed, you know,
my brother was a jock, we all did our stuff. My Mom was willing to drive
that distance 3 times a week and my Dad could drive me home. Then my Dad got
transferred close to the school and I went every day. Well except there were
some months when I didn't want to go for weeks at a time and so I didn't.
Just needed space, and then I would find myself going every day again."

"That year, some of our animals got sick. I wanted to be home most of the
time and homeschool with my mom and take care of the animals. I also got
involved in some of the projects at WH. And I liked to go in to see what my
friends were up to. Like I always went in for the plays and when we put out
a newsletter and I had a session where I taught the little kids how to knit
scarves, so I went in for those."

"I went every single day I could from day one for 10 years. I would wake up
in the morning stoked and excited. If I was sick or it was snowed out, I
would cry. I always wanted to be there. Excited to be there every minute."

Kids and families work out their relationship with the community and
attendance and it ebbs and flows for everyone except the teachers who are
paid to be there full time. Some kids come all the time and some come
sometimes. Some have regular part time attendance and some don't. There
might be a class or project (requested and initiated by the kids or offered
by adults) where a decision is made by all the participants that they want a
commitment from everyone in order for the project or class to operate
smoothly or be completed or whatever. And the commitment is spelled out i.e.
You need to come to all of the rehearsals or sessions or whatever. There is
lot of discussion about everyone's needs, wishes, expectations. The
responsibility, I think, comes from being in relationship and hearing about
and negotiating re: everyone's needs and working together. But I can't
imagine why all day every day should be compulsory for everyone.

My son goes every day and aims to get there on time because he wants to. He
finds that if he gets up in the morning and gets himself there at the same
time every day, he is better organized and settled and ready to go for the
math class he requested and has signed himself up for. He gets his catch up
socializing out of the way and he is able to get some music practice on
instruments we don't have at home. He says if he goes later, he's frazzled
and doesn't have time to do everything he wants to. Why is he studying math
which he hates and which is a struggle for him (he was diagnosed with ADHD)?
Because he wants to figure out the calculations for the dimensions of the
guitars he is building and because it helps him better understand music
theory. He figures out what he needs to do to get what he wants. These are
HIS choices. It is not for anybody else to tell him what to do! I'm sorry
but when adults start talking about forcing kids to do things they hate or
be where they don't want to be so they'll grow and develop responsibility,
my teeth start to hurt. Where does that idea come from??

Gotta go.

Donna

 
 
 

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<BODY>
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Ooh, I told myself not to jump in because of the =
time I=20
don't have at the moment, but this issue of compulsory attendance really =
gets me=20
going. My son goes to Windsor House in North Vancouver, in Canada. WH =
has been=20
around for about 35 years and has an age range of 5-18 years which =
fluctuates=20
between about 150 to 200 kids. Actually, if you include people's babies, =

parents, friends, relatives and alumni who hang out and are part of our=20
community, then the age range is birth to old age, but technically, the=20
registered learners are 5 - 18. It is a parent participation, democratic =

school<SPAN class=3D921072717-11102005>, non-coercive =
school</SPAN>&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D546015620-11102005>based on </SPAN>Sudbury Valley principles. =
Last year we=20
had a struggle to keep our public funding due to changed government laws =
and one=20
of the issues we absolutely went to the mat on was compulsory attendance =
- no=20
way are we willing to compromise on the issue of forcing children to =
choose=20
between all or nothing at our school. This is something kids, staff and =
parents=20
were unanimous about in our voting.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>I won't get into the ideological issues right now =
about why=20
we, as a school, are so strongly opposed to compulsory full time =
attendance, but=20
I'll talk a little bit about how it works&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D921072717-11102005>for us </SPAN>on a day to day basis and it =
works=20
well.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>I am currently finishing a PH.D. in which I =
interviewed=20
alumni from Windsor House, some of whom are now in their 30's. Here is =
how=20
different&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D921072717-11102005>ex-students =
</SPAN>talked about=20
attendance<SPAN class=3D921072717-11102005> (and I do think the most =
important=20
voice here is the students and what is important for them)</SPAN>. Each =
quote is=20
a different person:</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>"Going every day would have been too much. I liked =
going=20
about twice a week, that fit better with my rhythms and I liked to =
daydream and=20
do my writing from home.<SPAN class=3D921072717-11102005> And I did lots =
of=20
learning with my parents and aunt at home</SPAN>" (this person is now an =
award=20
winning novelist)</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>"We had family meetings where we talked about what =
we all=20
needed, you know, my brother was a jock, we all did our stuff. My Mom =
was=20
willing to drive that distance 3 times a week and my Dad could drive me =
home.=20
Then my Dad got transferred close to the school and I went every day. =
Well=20
except there were some months when I didn't want to go for weeks at a =
time and=20
so I didn't. Just needed space, and then I would find myself =
going&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D546015620-11102005>every day</SPAN> again."</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>"That year, some of our animals got sick. I wanted =
to be=20
home most of the time and homeschool with my mom and take care of the =
animals. I=20
also got involved in some of the projects at WH. And I liked to go in to =
see=20
what my friends were up to. Like I always went in for the plays and when =
we put=20
out a newsletter and I had a session where I taught the little kids how =
to knit=20
scarves, so I went in for those." </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>"I went every single day I could from day one for =
10 years.=20
I would wake up in the morning stoked and excited. If I was sick or it =
was=20
snowed out, I would cry. I always wanted to be there. Excited to be =
there every=20
minute."</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Kids and families work out their relationship with =
the=20
community and attendance and it ebbs and flows for everyone except the =
teachers=20
who are paid to be there<SPAN class=3D546015620-11102005> full =
time</SPAN>. Some=20
kids come all the time and some come sometimes. Some have regular part =
time=20
attendance and some don't. There might be a class or project (requested =
and=20
initiated by the kids or offered by adults) where a decision is made by =
all the=20
participants that they want a commitment from everyone in order for the =
project=20
or class to operate smoothly or be completed or whatever. And the =
commitment is=20
spelled out i.e. You need to come to all of the rehearsals or sessions =
or=20
whatever. There is lot of discussion about everyone's needs, wishes,=20
expectations. The responsibility, I think, comes from being in =
relationship and=20
hearing about and negotiating re: everyone's needs and working=20
together.&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D921072717-11102005>But </SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D921072717-11102005>I can't imagine why all day every day should =
be=20
compulsory for everyone.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>My son goes every day and aims to get there on =
time because=20
he wants to. He finds that if he gets up in the morning and gets himself =
there=20
at the same time every day, he is better organized and settled and ready =
to go=20
for the math class he requested and has signed himself up for. He gets =
his catch=20
up socializing out of the way and he is able to get some music practice =
on=20
instruments we don't have at home. He says if he goes later, he's =
frazzled and=20
doesn't have time to do everything he wants to. Why is he studying math =
which he=20
hates and which is a struggle for him (he was diagnosed with ADHD)? =
Because he=20
wants to figure out the calculations for the dimensions of the guitars =
he is=20
building and because it helps him better understand music theory. He =
figures out=20
what he needs to do to get what he wants. These are HIS choices. It is =
not for=20
anybody else to tell him what to do! I'm sorry but when adults start =
talking=20
about forcing kids to do things they hate or be where they don't want to =
be so=20
they'll grow and develop responsibility, my teeth start to hurt. Where =
does that=20
idea come from??</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Gotta go. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Donna</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3></FONT></P></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 03:02:33 +0200 (CEST)
From: frodon444 <frodon444_at_yahoo.fr>
Subject: Re: [Discuss-sudbury-model] For Bernard: French Sudbury texts?
To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

Hi Chantal,

It's amazing that I wanted to contact you for the same
reason !

We are a french starting group and I made some
translations for the french people (about 60 pages,
A4), because I could'nt found french texts about
Sudbury Valley.

The starting group from Berlin made also a film about
Sudbury Valley (in DVD format) with german subtitles,
and we are near finishing with the subtitles in
french.

I send you an email for more precise informations.

By the way, do somebody knows if there is a staring
group from Quebec ? (They may have identical needs)

Bernard.

        

        
                
___________________________________________________________________________
Appel audio GRATUIT partout dans le monde avec le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger
TÚlÚchargez cette version sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Karen Locke" <klocke_at_mn.rr.com>
To: <discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org>
Subject: Re: [Discuss-sudbury-model] Extreme examples of traditional
schools
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:08:54 -0500
Reply-To: discuss-sudbury-model_at_sudval.org

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I think the "extreme models" discussion is interesting. I want to think =
about what the purpose is for our communication. If we are trying to =
convince others to change what they are doing, I think we need to spell =
out what is wrong with what exists, telling the truth about what schools =
are doing to our kids (from our perception). I think this can be done =
without language about slaves and prisons, but if the analogies work for =
a while, why not use them? I think we sometimes need to be shocked into =
considering alternatives we haven't thought of.

However, people can only move so far and so fast from their comfort =
zone. I was once at a childbirth presentation, sponsored by a group =
supporting pretty radical, alternative birthing methods. Some =
presenters said that if a couple was really uncomfortable wtih home =
births they recommended against them. They'd found that for some =
people, some options just weren't feasible- they were too far from their =
past experience. So they gave them a "menu" of options, such as using =
nurse-midwives in the hospinal, using herbs instead of pitocin, etc. =20

To me there needs to be this same menu available for families and =
children. I think Sudbury needs to be there, and sometime in my life =
I'd like to help start one here. There are other options needed for =
people sho can't quite "go there", often because their background is too =
limited. For example, we started a part-time, unschooler program like =
some have talked about on this list. We had a family come from a really =
conservative background - the father had gone to West Point. Needless =
to say this wasn't a very comfortable fit, no matter how gung-ho they =
were at the start of our program!

My daughter chooses to go to the local, suburban public school. She =
started out an unschooler, was in our alternative program for 3 years =
and a truly free alternative school for 2. But she got to a point where =
she wanted something else. She wants to be "normal" - do what everyone =
else is doing, be in the mainstream. I'm pretty much a =
self-determination person, so that's what she's doing. She likes it =
(although she pretty much hates classes). She knows about several =
options, but they're not for her.

If I start talking gulags and nazis, it's difficult in my family. It =
has calmed me down - she's not dying, she's not being destroyed. I =
don't like what she IS doing, but then what parent likes what her =
16-year-old is doing all the time? =20

I want to change education. Last year I drove 88 miles per day to teach =
at a school I supported. This year I'm helping start an online, =
project-based school.

I want schools to get better - ALL schools. I want to contribute to =
society. Sudbury schools contribute, so do progressive schools, so do =
unschoolers. I really, honestly don't see that any of these are =
perfect. They're just all on the menu.

 =20

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think the "extreme models" discussion =
is=20
interesting.&nbsp; I want to think about what the purpose is for our=20
communication.&nbsp; If we are trying to convince others to change what =
they are=20
doing, I think we need to&nbsp; spell out what is wrong with what =
exists,=20
telling the truth about what schools are doing to our kids (from our=20
perception).&nbsp;&nbsp; I think this can be done without language about =
slaves=20
and prisons, but if the analogies work for a while, why not use =
them?&nbsp; I=20
think we sometimes need to be shocked into considering alternatives we =
haven't=20
thought of.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, people can only move so far =
and so fast=20
from their comfort zone.&nbsp; I was once at a childbirth presentation,=20
sponsored by a group supporting pretty radical, alternative birthing=20
methods.&nbsp; Some presenters said that if a couple was really =
uncomfortable=20
wtih home births they recommended against them.&nbsp; They'd found that =
for some=20
people, some options just weren't feasible- they were too far from their =
past=20
experience.&nbsp; So they gave them a "menu" of options, such as using=20
nurse-midwives in the hospinal,&nbsp; using herbs instead of pitocin, =
etc.&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To me there needs to be this same menu =
available=20
for families and children.&nbsp; I think Sudbury needs to be there, and =
sometime=20
in my life I'd like to help start one here.&nbsp; There are other =
options needed=20
for people sho can't quite "go there", often&nbsp;because their =
background is=20
too limited.&nbsp; For example, we started a part-time, unschooler =
program like=20
some have talked about on this list.&nbsp; We had a family come from a =
really=20
conservative background - the&nbsp;father&nbsp;had gone to West Point. =
&nbsp;=20
Needless to say this wasn't a very comfortable fit, no matter how =
gung-ho they=20
were at the start of our program!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My daughter chooses to go to&nbsp;the =
local,=20
suburban public school.&nbsp; She started out an unschooler, was in our=20
alternative program for 3 years and a truly free alternative school for =
2.&nbsp;=20
But she got to a point where she wanted something else.&nbsp; She wants =
to=20
be&nbsp;"normal" - do what everyone else is doing, be in the =
mainstream.&nbsp;=20
I'm pretty much a self-determination person, so&nbsp;that's what she's=20
doing.&nbsp; She likes it (although she pretty much hates =
classes).&nbsp; She=20
knows about several options, but they're not for her.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If I start talking gulags and nazis, =
it's difficult=20
in my family.&nbsp; It has calmed me down - she's not dying, she's not =
being=20
destroyed.&nbsp; I don't like what she IS doing, but then what parent =
likes what=20
her 16-year-old is doing all the time?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I want to change education.&nbsp; Last =
year I drove=20
88 miles per day to teach at a school I supported.&nbsp; This year I'm =
helping=20
start an online, project-based school.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I want schools to get better - ALL =
schools.&nbsp; I=20
want to contribute to society.&nbsp; Sudbury schools contribute, so do=20
progressive schools, so do unschoolers.&nbsp; I really, honestly don't =
see that=20
any of these are perfect.&nbsp; They're just all on the =
menu.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Received on Tue Oct 11 2005 - 23:13:51 EDT

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