DSM: Re: On Certainty and language.

From: Ann Ide (ann.ide@rcn.com)
Date: Mon Jan 28 2002 - 20:56:30 EST


Darren and everyone,

Welcome! I am also bothered by the way things have been spoken with such
certainty. I keep reading words like: debate, right and wrong, truth, and
challenging statements like we are trying to prove something. For others
out there, is debate one of the main purposes of this list? Personally, I
am not looking for any such things or trying to convince anyone of anything.
For me, this is a forum for learning, speculating, sharing ideas and
information to broaden my thinking. I have probably said it before; but I
do not believe there are truths. I also think that at times our discussions
are looking for a bit too much precision. I believe the best learning takes
place in a mood of delightful *wonder*. It sure is more fun! Shall we get a
little more in touch with our "inner child" (oh,and please don't pick on
that term, too, you must get the general gist here)? Please?

Thank you,
Ann Ide

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren Stanley" <rds1@ualberta.ca>
To: <discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:03 PM
Subject: DSM: On Certainty and language.

> Hello all (in particular Ardeshir and Travis),
>
> I am both troubled and amused with the thread - dare I say "banter" that
is
> going on back and forth. For someone like myself who has just recently
> joined the list, I am not quite sure what to make of it. The "tone" (if
one
> could ever attribute such a thing to words on a screen) does sound a bit
on
> the terse and rude side. Bt then again, we continually interpret
everything
> about us - including text (and, I don't mean that in some post-modernist
> sense). Moreover, I find the way in which things get said with such
> certainty to be troublesome.
>
> Look at the thread below, for instance...
>
> e-mail etiquette on the use of cpaital letters is akin to shouting. To
read
> this posting sounds like a shouting match between you two.
>
> ...and now onto some remarks on other uses of language..
>
> on the word, "education". It roots do suggest that something along the
> lines of "to rear" and "to lead forth". Certainly, this suggests some
form
> of doing things to others. In traditional schools, education, in part, is
> about one group imposing its views on another. I suppse that one might
say
> that this is coercive. Nevertheless, this is what goes on in
(traditional)
> schools, and it is fitting with the etymological sensibilities of the
words
> "to educate" and "education". So does SVS (and other "schools" - 'll
return
> to this word in a minute - like it) educate others?
>
> Schools are interesting places. There are most certaily rules in place.
> There are at Sudbury. And, I wonder if there isn't some sense of paradox
at
> work here. If SVS is about non-coersion, then why have rules? Or is it
the
> very fact, that it is a community of people deciding on how to govern
> themselves in a "self-regulating" manner that creates a different scenario
> where the application of rules is not a coersive move. By various
accounts
> and stoies that I have read, I am amused at how often people have to go to
a
> JC to account for their wrongs. That is, some measure of respect seems to
be
> missing. What I find odd is that even when people are given vasts amounts
> of freedom that there still is not always much respect present.
>
> Last, on the word "school", I admit the word and its various senses do
> trouble me. Nevertheless, "schools" do mean different things beside the
> usual sense of a place where children are usually taught in a particular
> manner. In addition to this sense, a "school" (imagaine if you will, a
> "school of fish" and how they interact and fnuction, etc.) comes the Greek
> root of "leisure" as in active leisure. This sensibility does come from
the
> ancient Greek view of educating (men - mostly). In this way, SVS is a
> school in that there is ample amount of active-leisure (and not). Just
> sleeping, for example, would not be active leisure.
>
> And, on that note...it's time to wade through the othe ga-zillion messages
> that await my attention.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Darren
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <BBWIA13@aol.com>
> To: <discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 9:01 AM
> Subject: Re: DSM: Is Sudbury not "Life lived, period"?
>
>
> > In a message dated 1/28/2002 2:39:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > ardeshir@sympatico.ca writes:
> >
> > << I agree that in an EDUCATION context it is wrong.
> >
> > But let us remember that Sudbury is NOT education! It is, as (I
> > think) Scott wrote once, "Life lived, period."
> >
> > In life lived, period, it is definitely NOT wrong to offer help.
> > Indeed it is wrong NOT to do so, because it goes against the best in
> > human nature! >>
> >
> >
> > Ardeshir,
> >
> > I simply cannot see it. What do you mean "Sudbury is NOT education?"
> That
> > is absolutely ludicrous!
> > It may be a specific and unique type of education, but it is still a
> > "type" of education. The school is "educating" its students, albeit
> education
> > draped in the teachings of responsibility, is it not?
> > I will say, though, that I think your statement helped me in a
> specific
> > way. Indeed, it served as a superb explanatory measure in highlighting
> where
> > previous statements made by yourself came from, and under what context.
I
> > think that it makes more sense now. I sincerely hope, because I think
you
> > have valuable insight about the school and are a good analytical
thinker,
> > that you will retract this statement, citing the use of Scott's quote as
> > taken ENTIRELY out of context.
> >
> > -Travis W.
> >
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>
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