Re: DSM: On Certainty and language.

From: Ann Ide (ann.ide@rcn.com)
Date: Mon Jan 28 2002 - 20:40:50 EST


Dear Mike,

THANK YOU (and yes, I want that to be heard loud and clear) ! I agree that
this discussion was getting a bit absurd. It really doesn't seem all that
complicated to me and also seems to be working quite well.
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Sadofsky" <sadofsky@mediaone.net>
To: <discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: DSM: On Certainty and language.

> Thank you, Darren, for restoring a sense of rationality to this
> discussion.
>
> I have no idea from whence Ardeshir's idea that
> >> A lot of schools do have eduation as their goal. But SVS, as I
understand
> >> it, does not. Its goal is freedom, and *nothing* else.
> came, but it doesn't ring true to me. Perhaps as, I think Travis
> noted, it has been taken from an earlier post by Scott. I don't know
> the context.
>
> In any event, I'll quote briefly from the SVS by-laws.
> >The purpose for which this corporation is formed is to establish and
maintain a school for the education of members of the community that is
founded upon the principle that learning is best fostered by
self-motivation, self-regulation, and self-criticism;...>
>
> In this phrase, >members of the community< refers to those who enroll
> and the staff they engage to maintain the school.
>
> Much of the thread has revolved around the question of solicited vs
> unsolicited help, guidance, teaching, support, assistance, ...
> The position at SVS is that to best foster self-motivation,
> self-regulation, and self-criticism, unsolicited help, guidance,
> teaching, support, assistance is best avoided except in such
> pathological situations as, for example, immediate safety or response
> to physical accidents.
>
> I'll stop here.
> Mike Sadofsky
>
>
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:06:20 -0700, "Darren Stanley"
> <rds1@ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> >Thank you, Ardeshir, for responding to my e-mail.
> >
> >It does make for a very different reading (believe it or not) when CAPS
or
> >tialics or asterisks are used. I can imagine (although it will be a bit
of
> >a stretch for me to do so) that the conversations I have been trying to
> >follow don't *sound* like yelling matches. It is not so much that I
> >*object* to CAPS, it is just that for someone (like myself) who has had
> >others point out particular e-mail etiquette and has since followed it,
> >reading e-mails by others where CAPS have meant something specific can be
> >confusing and a source for annoyance. My list of annoyances is rather
> >small, but seeing adults argue does drive me around the bend. Whether or
> >not you and Travis have been is sort of besides the point. It is about,
for
> >me, the perceptions that other smight have. And, as in other contexts, I
> >have often been told that if I have a patriuclar question or comment or
> >observation, then maybe there are also others in the same boat. So..it
*is*
> >good to clear up such understandings.
> >
> >> A lot of schools do have eduation as their goal. But SVS, as I
understand
> >> it, does not. Its goal is freedom, and *nothing* else. Indeed that is
also
> >the
> >> means to the goal. (It is not often that the mans and the goal are the
> >same!)
> >
> >This is an interesting thought, but I am not one to respond to it since I
> >have not yet seen nor spent any useful amounts of time at SVS (or an
> >SVS-like school). I can see how freedome may be the means, but I really
> >don't know if one could say that that is the goal. I don't think that
such
> >a goal could ever be achieved by participating within any social
structure -
> >including SVS.
> >
> >> I am reminded re. this of a quote from a play by Bernard Shaw, in which
> >> a defrocked Irish priest is telling his listeners about his idea of
> >heaven:
> >> "My notion of heaven", he says, "is a place where work is play and play
> >> is life: three in one and one in three." *This* is what I mean as well!
> >
> >I like this annecdote. In fact, I pretty say a similar thing to people
who
> >wonder why I go to university. My work is my play. And, I enjoy what I
do
> >and would have it no other way. Why do soemthing that you don't
enjoy?!?!
> >
> >> Freedom, by its very nature, *cannot* be absolute, because one cannot
> >> have the freedom to *take away* others' freedom! So rules are
absolutely
> >> necessary to preserve freedom, and to ensure that *everyone* lives
free.
> >
> >Fair enough. But your second sentence sounds like it is meant to be a
> >foregone logical conclusion. Which is to say, that it does not follow.
I
> >would hazard the guess that so long as people participate within human
> >social structures/systems that people are not absolutely free. This is
not
> >to say that people cannot be absolutely free. Perhaps, *simply* (if only
> >life could be so simple!) not participating within such structures is all
> >that would be needed.
> >
> >To live within such a system then, wouls seem to require the necessary
> >provisions of rights and responsibilities - hence, rules. What then do
we
> >mean by rights? I have seen that word crop up several times since i
joined
> >this list without having *any* sense of what that means. What *rights*
do
> >people/children/adults have? In a system, these get determined in a
> >particular way. Outside of a system, the notion of rights makes no
sense.
> >Of course, if one is so inclined to viewed the earth or an ecosystem is
> >participating within a system, then we might be talking about something.
> >These are ecological sensibilities. Because it is a different system
9from
> >a human social system), there may very well indeed be different rules to
> >follow. All in all, at every corner i turn, there seem to be different
> >rules and responsibilties at every corner I turn. In the end, however, I
> >think that greater concern could be for rexpect others, rather than
ensuring
> >personal freedoms. just an extended thought (which i wasn't planning on
> >writing here).
> >
> >> You are completely right about leisure being connected with the
> >> word "school" (via the Greek.) And yes, in *that* sense Sudbury
> >> *is* a school. But it is *not* a school that provides *education*:
> >> at least not as the word "education" is mostly understood to mean.
> >
> >I don't find much to disagree with over these statements...although I
would
> >say that education seems to have more to do with imposing rather than
> >offering or providing anything...whether that thing is wanted or not.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Darren
> >
> >
> >
> >
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