Re: DSM: degrees of illusionary freedom

From: Scott David Gray (sgray@aramis.sudval.org)
Date: Wed Nov 07 2001 - 11:05:38 EST


On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Alan Klein wrote:

> I actually think that you and I are in substantial agreement (perhaps
> "violent agreement"), Scott. I do not see the classroom I ran in the 1970's
> in a public school as being equal to a democratic school. Nor, though, do I
> see it as equal to the traditionally run classrooms in the same school. Nor
> do I see it as some kind of greater evil because I somehow lied to the kids.
>
> I take your point that the Assembly has more SM members than otherwise,
> though the math escapes me somewhat. Do two parents count as two votes or as
> one in the SVS Assembly?

Each parent has one vote. Each child has one vote. There
are pretty darn close to two children per family, but
somewhat less than two parents per family (remember that the
US, unlike Italy, does not have negative population growth).
And each staff member (also SM members, elected by the SM)
has one vote.

> I never said there was a "problem". I was attempting to show that there do
> exist entities that are adult controlled outside of the SM that can exert
> "veto power" over the SM, at least in extreme cases.
>
> I disagree that parents' control of the purse strings does not ultimately
> give them control over the school as a whole. I am not speaking of an
> individual parent, but rather of the parent group as a whole. If they all
> decided to change the school's system, they might well convince enough of
> their kids that it would be in their own "best interest" to go along. Or,
> they could pull out en masse and leave the school with no students.

As I wrote in the very next paragraph of my message (which
you failed to quote back, or respond to):

     "I don't think that any person has suggested that it's
unfeasible for outside forces to destroy democracy in one of
these schools. Just as an armed invasion by Italy could
destroy the democratic structures in San Marino. To have a
_precarious_ democracy is not synonymous with having
day-to-day choices made and power held by the outside
authority with physical might.

It is helpful to quote back the words of others that you
disagree with. It keeps the debate honest, and helps people
to avoid making the same arguments over and over with
different words. Please, in the future, do not quote back
only a portion of my argument and then critique my argument
as incomplete!

> ~Alan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott David Gray" <sgray@aramis.sudval.org>
> Alan wrote:
> > > Ultimately, the monetary power is held by the parents, as they can
> decide
> > > not to pay the tuition.
> >
> > Monetary and legal power over an individual student is held
> > by her/his parent(s). But not over the school as a whole.
> > Did anyone ever maintain that the "American Family" is or
> > could be democratic?
>
>
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-- 
 
--Scott David Gray
reply to: sgray@sudval.org
http://www.unseelie.org/
============================================================
You charm'd me not with that fair face
  Though it was all divine:
To be another's is the grace,
  That makes me wish you mine.
The Gods and Fortune take their part
  Who like young monarchs fight;
And boldly dare invade that heart
  Which is another's right.
First mad with hope we undertake
  To pull up every bar;
But once possess'd, we faintly make
  A dull defensive war.
Now every friend is turn'd a foe
  In hope to get our store:
And passion makes us cowards grow,
  Which made us brave before.

-- John Dryden ============================================================

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