Re[2]: DSM: kibbutzim schools and SVM

From: David Rovner (rovners@netvision.net.il)
Date: Tue Jun 12 2001 - 10:04:49 EDT


Ardeshir,
I think you should visit Israel again.

>Perhaps most people on the
>list aren't really interested in this subject.

That's a cognitive distortion -- it's called "overgeneralization".
You feel the way you think (see: Feeling Good -
The New Mood Therapy by David Burns).
I'd rather say people either don't feel the SUBJECT
is relevant to their lives -- that I believe is a mistake --
or they aren't well versed on it . . . they might also not
be in the mood to comment ! !
4
I think there is a direct relation between:
1. the country's regime and its educational system, and
2. the political view of a person and its readiness to
support a democratic school or any other school.

>Since the kibbutzim are all founded on principles of
>participatory democracy, it would seem to be logical that
>those who raise their children with the hope that they,
>too, will opt for the kibbutz lifestyle when they become
>adults would like to raise these children in a manner
>which would make them as familiar as possible with the
>principles of participatory democracy. Therefore I would
>have thought that the philosophy of the Sudbury schools
>would be both welcome and familiar to such people.

The fact is they are not.

What is a "real" democracy?:
1. just a participatory democracy?
2. just a democracy protecting the rights of individuals?
3. BOTH options plus universal suffrage?

>As for there being no individual rights on the kibbutz,
>this notion is risible. You won't find a more individualistic
>person than your average kibbutznik, anywhere in the
>world. Canadians on the average, for example, and
>Italians too, not to mention Indians (I have lived in Israel,
>Italy, and India, besides of course Canada, where I live
>now) are FAR more non-individualistic.

Being a person individualistic does no necessarily mean the
system/regime of the country features "protecting the rights
of individuals".

There are many kinds/styles of individualism.
I can think of at least two kinds/styles of individualism:
one rational and another one irrational.

>In Israel, at least in the early years of the
>kibbutzim, kibbutz children would not even sit for the
>*bagrut* -- the official Israeli school leaving certificate
>examination.

Today they all sit for the *bagrut* -- the official Israeli
school leaving certificate examination. That is, if they
want to enter College. By the way, they also sit for the
Israeli SAT (Psychometric exams in Israel) if they
wish to enter College -- that leads to huge problems:
in the domain of equal opportunities, freedom of
learning, justice, integrity, creation of elite groups, etc., etc.

>the basic philosophy surely can't have changed THAT
>much.

I agree with that -- still Israel is completely different today
than it was forty, thirty, twenty or even ten years ago, and
that includes kibbutzim. That's why I think you should visit
Israel again -- you are invited.

David

P.S. I'am including below copy of one more posting
other than mine on this subject.

---------- Original Message ----------

>From: "Ardeshir Mehta, N.D." <ardeshir@sympatico.ca>
>To: discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org
>Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:47:02 -0400
>Subject: Re: DSM: kibbutzim schools and SVM

>Hello there:

>I waited a while before replying to the message by David
>Rovner, since I was not sure how much interest there is on
>this list in kibbutz schools.

>Since there have not been any postings other than by
>David, I shall keep this brief. Perhaps most people on the
>list aren't really interested in this subject.

>Since the kibbutzim are all founded on principles of
>participatory democracy, it would seem to be logical that
>those who raise their children with the hope that they,
>too, will opt for the kibbutz lifestyle when they become
>adults would like to raise these children in a manner
>which would make them as familiar as possible with the
>principles of participatory democracy. Therefore I would
>have thought that the philosophy of the Sudbury schools
>would be both welcome and familiar to such people.

>As for there being no individual rights on the kibbutz,
>this notion is risible. You won't find a more individualistic
>person than your average kibbutznik, anywhere in the
>world. Canadians on the average, for example, and
>Italians too, not to mention Indians (I have lived in Israel,
>Italy, and India, besides of course Canada, where I live
>now) are FAR more non-individualistic.

>By the way, there are kibbutzim in Japan also, or so I am
>told. Maybe Alexander would like to contact some of
>them and find out how they are managing with their
>schooling? In Israel, at least in the early years of the
>kibbutzim, kibbutz children would not even sit for the
>*bagrut* -- the official Israeli school leaving certificate
>examination. Things are of course different now, but
>the basic philosophy surely can't have changed THAT
>much.

>Ardeshir <http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/education.html>

>**************************************************

From: Martin Wilke <martin.wilke@gmx.net>
To: discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 01:04:23 +0200
Subject: Re: DSM: On Hybrid schools . . . Our Trojan Horse?

David Rovner schrieb:
>
> Ardeshir Mehta wrote:
> >In Israel there are four main "movements" among
> >kibbutzim, all of which are founded on strict democratic
> >principles (for adults).
>
> Kibbutzim are not democratic -- as I understand
> democracy.
> Kibbutzim are based on Socialist Ideology, so they are lacking
> individual rights -- they just honor the majority decision
> aspect of democracy.
>
> David Rovner rovners@netvision.net.il

I disagree. Socialism can be everything from libertarian to dictatorial,
as well as capitalism may or may not be democratic.
The right to property is not the only individual right. And each right
can only go as far as it doesn't infringe on other people's individual
rights or their possibilities to development.

Martin Wilke

-- 
http://www.kraetzae.de
http://www.demokratische-schule.de

**********************************************

>David Rovner wrote:

>> I will try to analyze -- in a rather simplified >> manner -- the question Ardeshir Mehta, N.D. >> formulates (see below). >> >> Some background: >> >> Israel is a country that has been for 53 years now, >> in an apparently "state of emergency" and in a "state >> of being surrounded" -- since its founding in 1948. >> >> Israel's population is nearly 7 million inhabitants. >> >> As for today, there is one SVM school in Israel, >> one SIMILAR (to SVM) school -- a school valuing >> democracy, individual choice, and personal >> responsibility, and not few Sudbury Model or >> similar (to SVM) school -- undefined yet -- >> start-up Groups. >> >> It can be said that Israel was founded as a socialist >> country -- by the inspiration of Soviet Union's >> ideology -- that's how kibbutzim (specially Kibbutz >> Ha-Artzi / Ha-Shomer Ha-Tza'ir movement) were >> established. >> >> It is well known that socialism and fascism are >> specific variants, which statism is the wider generic >> term. >> It is also obvious that statism is the dominant >> political trend of our day and both come from the >> same collectivist-statist principle. >> >> Collectivism puts emphasis on the group rather than >> on the individual -- kibbutz (in Hebrew) = collective. >> >> Simultaneously, Israel was founded as a homeland for >> the Jewish people. >> >> It is very difficult (if not impossible) for a country to >> be a democratic nation, and at the same time, an ethnic >> group's homeland who's religious common denominator >> has had a decisive weight during its history. >> >> In Judaism and in Israel -- homeland of the Jewish people >> -- NATION is interweaved with TRADITION (religion in >> this case). >> >> My personal experience is as follows: >> I'v been working on advancing democratic schools -- >> specifically the SVM, freedom of learning, and individual >> rights in Israel . >> >> At the beginning, schools at kibbutzim were part of the >> kibbutz and were financed by it. >> Because kibbutzim wish to enjoy government financing >> of education (a worldwide phenomenon) that comes >> in one package with strings attached, kibbutzim schools >> today have already become one school for several >> kibbutzim and they also take external tuition-students. >> >> Kibbutzim population is now the second, third or fourth >> generation of the *halutzim* -- pioneers. Ideology has >> changed. No more socialism-collectivism. More >> individualism -- still not a rational one -- privatization, >> and differential wages. >> >> The problem is this: >> SVM = majority decision + individual rights >> + universal suffrage. >> KIBBUTZ = majority decision + the "rights" of the >> group (collective) + adult suffrage. >> >> I sure welcome change from a kibbutz school to a >> Sudbury-type school in Israel. Change from a >> kibbutz school to a Sudbury-type school is not >> altogether impossible, and I think it only depends >> on the will of the people involved -- and that >> includes governments. >> >> David Rovner rovners@netvision.net.il >>

===========

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