Re: DSM: Re: RE: On Hybrid schools . . . Our Trojon Horse?

From: Susan Jarquin (jarquin@pacbell.net)
Date: Mon May 14 2001 - 09:30:58 EDT


Warren,
    Do you think that funding is a big issue?
    I haven't researched this greatly but I did spend a couple of days reading
through the California Education Code. I found that there are many more rules
when money is received from the State of California.
Susan Jarquin

Warren McMillan wrote:

> Greetings. I've been following this list for awhile to find out more about
> Sudbury schools but I find I must respond to this thread on hybrid schools.
> I am still learning the Sudbury philosophy but, having taught in traditional
> schools for 25 years, I know them pretty well and of one thing I am sure...
> they do not change. They don't change because they continue to do an
> extremely efficient job of what they were originally designed to do, which
> has nothing to do with freedom or democracy. Read John Gatto for an
> eloquent description of the real lessons learned in traditional schools. I
> went into teaching to change schooling. I was convinced that to change
> something you had to do it from within so I got my teaching degree and spent
> ten years in traditional classrooms trying to change education. Well, as
> you must know by now, I failed, so I spent the next fifteen years just
> trying to insulate my students from the most invasive aspects of a coercive
> system.
>
> >From my experience, then, there are no degrees of change that will transform
> a traditional school into anything but what it is and has always been. I
> believe it is true that an idea never loses its original volition or
> intention. The intent of an idea follows that idea as long as it survives.
> In the case of traditional schooling, the original intent had to do with
> preparing an industrial workforce, hence the preoccupation with
> authoritarian control, hierarchical organization, 'class' structure,
> fragmented blocks of time etc.
>
> The reason traditional schooling cannot change is that the whole system, the
> whole concept, is based on an original idea that carries this original
> intent which will never change. Traditional schooling can never reconcile
> ideas like democracy and freedom. Now, consider the original intent of the
> idea for a Sudbury Valley school. The contrast is stark and is captured in
> the title of the seminal text for the school ie. 'Free at Last'.
>
> Warren
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sam Senteney <sambo01@pacbell.net>
> To: <discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 4:25 PM
> Subject: DSM: RE: On Hybrid schools . . . Our Trojon Horse?
>
> > Sam here -
> >
> > >I said:
> > >> "Free schools frighten many people simply because they have no
> > >> idea how it can all work. Having a "all or nothing", "take it or leave
> > it"
> > >> approach does nothing to bring the nervous on board."
> > >
> > >> To me this is a good thing and exactly the point! We in Sacramento
> have
> > >had
> > >> more than our share of "nervous" on board, and after all is said and
> done
> > >> they almost always leave. And usually it is not a plesant experience.
> > On
> > >> the other hand, those who buy the "all or nothing", "take it or leave
> it"
> > >of
> > >> our philosophy stick around and are contributing members of the
> > community.
> > >
> > >Of course ! But that is because you -are- an SVS model school. No-one
> > >is arguing with that. And to have the nervous on board is -definately- an
> > >error. Well done .
> > >
> > >But the discussion is now at a tangent. The trojon horse is not for SVS
> > >model schools, but for ordinary ones. If you have full SVS status, no
> > >worries.
> >
> > Clearly my mistake. I thought this was the "discuss-sudbury-model" list.
> I
> > missed the transition to the "other-schools-we-would-like-to-see",
> > "trojan-horse-for-ordinary-schools", or
> > "how-to-make-an-almost-but-not-quite-sudbury-school" list. I'll pay more
> > attention next time. :+)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> Hybrids do not work.
> > >
> > >Well blimey ! That's a b o l d statment.? Can you give some
> examples
> > >and reasons why it failed?
> >
> > I was trolling my library to respond, and then read Susan Jarquin's post
> > about "ANNOUNCING A NEW SCHOOL..." by Daniel Greenberg. Bingo! That is a
> > great place to start, and trust me, Danny is much more coherent and
> eloquent
> > than I. I also remember discussions on this list and others dating many
> > years back that involve schools no longer around due to too many
> > compromises. I apologize, but I am off on too many other projects to
> provide
> > the research right now...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> "A sliding approach needs to be provided." You can offer Taco Bell
> next
> > >> year or possibly two or three kinds of toothpaste the year after, but
> for
> > >> all that sliding you still don't have freedom, just a few more choices.
> > >
> > >And the n a few more, and more and then you are on the road to freedom.
> > >And getting on the road is the first step.
> >
> > While I enjoy the quaintness of the "one drop is the beginning of an
> ocean"
> > type philosophical arguments, they do not apply in this case. It's that
> > little bit pregnant thing. Certainly from oppression to freedom there is
> a
> > continuum, and there are many steps and paths to get there. It is possible
> > to have partial freedom as a condition. I find it much harder to say there
> > is a partial Sudbury school. If we are speaking on one of those
> > aforementioned lists, then yes, I believe any effort to move an oppressive
> > school to one with a greater degree of freedom or practice of democratic
> > principles is a positive thing. I just don't believe you can call it a
> > Sudbury school until you arrive at the destination.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> Do the smooth and successful conversion of the more extreme and
> > regimented
> > >> schools, but don't tinker with creating the missing link, because there
> > is
> > >> none.
> > >
> > >You lost me. What are you talking about?
> >
> >
> > When you previously stated -
> >
> > "A sliding approach needs to be provided. Interestingly enough, it is my
> > observation that the more extreme and regimented a school is, the
> > more easily, smoothly and successfully the school can be "converted"."
> >
> > My response meant that if what you state is true, then go ahead and
> convert
> > those schools. There is no "missing link" between one of these converting
> > schools and a Sudbury school that can be called a Sudbury school. You may
> be
> > on the road, but you are not there until you are there.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org
> > [mailto:owner-discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org]On Behalf Of Alexander /
> > Michiru Streater
> > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 8:35 AM
> > To: discuss-sudbury-model@sudval.org
> > Subject: DSM: On Hybrid schools . . . Our Trojon Horse?
> >
> >
> > Hi Sam,
> >
> > I said:
> > > "Free schools frighten many people simply because they have no
> > > idea how it can all work. Having a "all or nothing", "take it or leave
> it"
> > > approach does nothing to bring the nervous on board."
> >
> > > To me this is a good thing and exactly the point! We in Sacramento have
> > had
> > > more than our share of "nervous" on board, and after all is said and
> done
> > > they almost always leave. And usually it is not a plesant experience.
> On
> > > the other hand, those who buy the "all or nothing", "take it or leave
> it"
> > of
> > > our philosophy stick around and are contributing members of the
> community.
> >
> > Of course ! But that is because you -are- an SVS model school. No-one
> > is arguing with that. And to have the nervous on board is -definately- an
> > error. Well done .
> >
> > But the discussion is now at a tangent. The trojon horse is not for SVS
> > model schools, but for ordinary ones. If you have full SVS status, no
> > worries.
> >
> > > Hybrids do not work.
> >
> > Well blimey ! That's a b o l d statment.? Can you give some examples
> > and reasons why it failed?
> >
> > > A Sudbury school is what it is, and parts-swapping
> > > creates something that is not a Sudbury school. "A regular school that
> > > provides more choice to it's students about what they do during the day"
> > is
> > > not a Sudbury School.
> >
> > Agreed. Blimey ! Agreed. Please don't think anyone was.
> >
> > > You can call it a hybrid Sudbury if you want, but is
> > > more like a prison that offers McDonalds in addition to the regular
> dinner
> > > fare. It may offer more choice, but still is not freedom by any stretch
> > of
> > > the imagination.
> >
> > Well that's a start!
> >
> > > "A sliding approach needs to be provided." You can offer Taco Bell next
> > > year or possibly two or three kinds of toothpaste the year after, but
> for
> > > all that sliding you still don't have freedom, just a few more choices.
> >
> > And the n a few more, and more and then you are on the road to freedom.
> > And getting on the road is the first step.
> >
> > > Do the smooth and successful conversion of the more extreme and
> regimented
> > > schools, but don't tinker with creating the missing link, because there
> is
> > > none.
> >
> > You lost me. What are you talking about?
> >
> > Alexander Streater
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Message to fellow teachers
> >
> > Children learn inspite of us, not because of us!
> >
> >
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