Re[2]: DSM: On Hybrid schools . . . Our Trojan Horse?

From: David Rovner (
Date: Sun May 13 2001 - 09:22:56 EDT

Ardeshir Mehta wrote:
>In Israel there are four main "movements" among
>kibbutzim, all of which are founded on strict democratic
>principles (for adults).

Kibbutzim are not democratic -- as I understand
Kibbutzim are based on Socialist Ideology, so they are lacking
individual rights -- they just honor the majority decision
aspect of democracy.

David Rovner

>---------- Original Message ----------

>From: "Ardeshir Mehta, N.D." <>
>Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:43:43 -0400
>Subject: Re: DSM: On Hybrid schools . . . Our Trojon Horse?

>Hi there Bill:

>Thanks for your understanding!

>You wrote:

>> Dear Ardeshir,
>> Thank you. I think I see that my difficulty was logical.
>> Like:
>> Sudbury crushes the duality between young and old (but not completely)
>> Sudbury crushes the duality between teacher and learner (but not
>> Sudbury crushes the view of the child as an improver (but not absolutely)

>Right. (I didn't quite get that last one, though!)

>> My puzzle was exactly the self referential one in logic.
>> ... <snip>
>> In this scenario Sudbury would
>> even decline to claim goodness for itself. ... <snip>


>> If I understand you comments, the stance of Sudbury in these matters is
>> seen as approximate, in light of the fact that viewing these stances as
>> absolute leads to logical absurdity.

>Quite right.

>Once one starts speaking in "absolutes", one loses logical
>coherence. Logically there can be nothing absolute: neither
>power nor freedom.

>This is also the stand of the "Intuitionists" in mathematics,
>who will not even accept the valid existence of infinite
>*numbers*, even though numbers are merely a creation of
>the mind! How much more so, then, when speaking of re-
>ality (i.e., not mere creations of the mind).

>But I also sympathise with those who do not wish the prin-
>ciples of a Sudbury school so adulterated that a school with
>such adulterated principles can no longer be reasonably
>called a "Sudbury school".

>But here I appeal to everyone's sense of what is reasonable.
>To illustrate: if you add just one molecule of pure water to
>a gallon of milk, that milk can hardly be called "adulterated".
>Even if you add a thousand molecules it is unreasonable to
>call it adulterated. But if you add a *cupful* of water, it is;
>and if you add a gallon-full, it is *definitely* adulterated!

>Similarly, if there is a school model *very* close to the
>Sudbury model, it can be called "*nearly* a Sudbury
>school" (or some such thing.) But on the other hand, if you
>insist on calling a school like Eton or Harrow a "Sudbury
>school", that would hardly pass the laugh test.

>Reasonably speaking -- and even logically speaking -- there
>*has* to be a certain amount of leeway in the definition of
>what validly constitutes a "Sudbury school".

>BTW: I take my cue from the kibbutzim in Israel, with
>which I have considerable experience (I have even written a
>booklet about it, a link to which you can find on my Home
>Page). In Israel there are four main "movements" among
>kibbutzim, all of which are founded on strict democratic
>principles (for adults). Just because there are distinct (and
>in some cases, even insurmountable) differences between
>the four movements, however, does not render a kibbutz
>belonging to one of them "not a kibbutz" in the eyes of
>those belonging to the other movements!

>All the best,


>Home Page: <



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