RE: DSM: about Sudbury model

From: Joe Jackson (
Date: Sun Apr 15 2001 - 15:31:01 EDT

I can't make you derive sense from what I say, John. All of our kids leave
our school knowing how to read. They all leave school knowing as much about
math and science as they need to do what they want to do in life. Nobody
forces them to do anything.

Your observation that the group you have experience with only learns things
as a result of force points to confounding in your sample. It's that

What does the group you have experience with have in common? I can't answer
that question for you, but if you can answer it for yourself you might gain
an insight into what is confounding your sample. All I know is that my
group never had anyone tell them to read, and they all read better in
general than their conventionally-schooled counterparts.

Perhaps it would be fairer of you not to confuse the perceived lack of the
helpfulness of my comment (which from where I stand is entirely on point)
with your unwillingness and/or inability to grasp what I am saying than to
attempt to portray the intent behind my comment as "unhelpful".

Joe Jackson

> Joe,
> The fact that every child you are currently involved in has
> learned everything
> they know without being forced to is a most unhelpful comment.
> The observation
> stated had to do with diving into reading, math or science. It
> also meant to
> indicate that a certain amount of competency was gained in each
> of these areas.
> That fact that the children in your sample have all been self motivated to
> learn whatever they have learned does not in the least address
> the statement
> you reference.
> I am currently desperately trying to understand learning styles,
> left brain,
> right brain and all that stuff and am trying to figure out what
> it takes to get
> kids to come up to me and say, hey ! can I learn physics ?
> Algebra ? How about
> a few hours of Shakespear ?
> If you have some group of children that are coming to you asking
> to achieve
> excellence in these subjects, I sure would like to know how you found that
> group of children. It may be in your area children just have
> nothing else to
> do.
> Unfortunately the kids I work with, mainly home school kids, have
> interests
> that will not qualify them to get into anything. They like to
> make money doing
> minimum wage jobs, they like dirt bikes, quads, fishing, hunting,
> camping out,
> dancing, all kinds of sports and will stay at the ski mountain
> five days a week
> for 18 weeks a year (yes my son did this for seven years) (we
> have practiced
> real freedom with him).
> These kids have pretty much have learned everything they know
> without being
> forced to and no one will pay them anything more than a minimum
> wage and have
> no interest in going any farther than minimum wage, which is
> about where most
> of their parents are financially.
> I believe these children deserve a better life than what welfare,
> which many of
> the parents are on, and minimum wage jobs will give them. Very
> few of the kids
> in our area go on to anything other than the military or work in the mills
> around here, which are not only dead end jobs but ones that are being
> eliminated year by year by the green peace people.
> So if you have any suggestions it would be greatly appreciated. I
> am not really
> interested in just standing by and watching them all continue to
> wander around
> with the use of drugs and alcholo being their highest goal.
> John Axtell
> Joe Jackson wrote:
> > > I
> > > have seen few students that will just dive into the art of
> reading without
> > > being forced, or math, or science.
> >
> > That's interesting. Practically every child I am currently
> involved in has
> > learned everything they know without being forced to. I
> suggest that your
> > sample is confounded.
> >
> > Joe Jackson
> > Fairhaven School

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