Re: DSM: Re: RE: JC and SM


John Axtell (newlife@theofficenet.com)
Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:28:45 -0800


Walter,

I am most confused and can not comprehend where you are coming from.

In the example I used the fact that being punished was the highlight of
their day because they were finally the center of attention one can not
conclude that they did not receive their fair share of attention all day
within the group they were in.

I did not say that they received no attention from their parents during the
entire day. I even went back to read the entire e-mail I wrote you and it
made no mention of parents. You must have assumed that it was a family
situation. Neither did I make any reference to "your greater good".

I fail to understand what reasoning you have gone through to make such broad
generalizations from a two paragraph statement that was abstract in its
context.

Rather than assuming that it was a family situation you could have assumed
it was a situation in a boys club in a neighborhood and that the boy had not
conformed to the democratically forumlated rules of the club and that the
spanking was the agreed to punishment, when the rule was broken so everyone
knew the limits and what to expect for punishment, for breaking the rule
that was broken.

The point being made, obviously not very well, and it may have been an
example that so upset you that you failed to read what I wrote, is that
there is no such thing as "punishment" as defined by an outsider.

To give another example, which I hope you can understand without putting
more into it than there is - some people would think death is a rather
severe punishment while others seek it in order to become a "martyr" or to
achieve some other result they desire - such as shooting the person who
stole their skate board as we saw demonstrated yesterday.

The KEY point is that I believe a PS is a worthy approach to consider to
personal and group growth and from what others have written on this list the
JC often performs the role that has been proposd for the PS.

The entire e mail follows for your review.

I really hope this clarifies my position. I am not taking a moral stand on
any of the behavior that some might consider "punishments" I am simply
trying to add to the discussion as to the value of a PS and a JC and
understand those values.

In fact you can rest assured that in most of my posts I am not taking a
position I necessarily believe in but am trying to understand the SV model
in all of its implications. I could just as easily have taken the reverse
position if it could have improved my understanding of the model.

I am seeking the "truth" for my vision and my situation not "truth" for
anyone else and while I may position an argument against a certain position
please understand that I do not value the other individual's position less
than my own but I may not choose to live it in my life while gladly letting
the other individual live it in his life.

What I strive to understand is others viewpoints and what road they have
taken to get there.

Please keep the comments coming and I will try to keep being clearer in what
I write.
You and your wife make me think a lot:)

John

Walter, the entire content of the previous e-mail for your review.

Walter,

I think problem solving is not an inward process it is an external process.
First no problem occurs unless there is external input. A PS is needed (ie.
a
third party) who is skilled in conflict resolution, conflict both between
people and within oneself.

Punishment is defined by the person being punished. I know kids that
spanking
was the highlight of their day because they were finally the center of
attention. Fear is not a very effective motivator but it may, in some cases,
be
a good controller, or preventor of behavior.

John Axtell

"Walter Thiessen (Connweb)" wrote:

> > Punishment is defined by the person being punished. I know kids that
> spanking
> > was the highlight of their day because they were finally the center of
> > attention. Fear is not a very effective motivator but it may, in some
> cases, be
> > a good controller, or preventor of behavior.
>
> I pity those kids. They must have had horrible existences to have a daily
> spanking as the highlight of their day. In your own words, except for the
> spanking, they received no attention from their parents. What a barren
> existence you envision for them in defense of your greater good!



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