RE: DSM: Re: Finding like-minded people

Joe Jackson (
Sun, 29 Oct 2000 13:21:15 -0500

> It really comes
> down to the idea, I think, that you really don't teach
> anyone anything, rather, they take their learning from
> you if they choose.

And in addition, the students are far less likely to choose to "take" those
small moments of actual learning as they are either too focused on
memorizing what will be on the test, or completely withdrawn as a result of
the continuous barrage of adults pressuring them.

  I think this is true in my school
> where we tend to think the students are "learning,"
> but for many of them it is more of a stimulus
> response. Of course, there are those who learn
> because of their interest, in spite of the
> conditioning.

I agree, and I believe the few that are able to resist the coercion and
leave school as lifelong learners are mainly the type of folks who start
Sudbury schools. They (we) also tend to have lingering anger about our
school experiences, and there was never a person or people to be angry at,
only ideas.

I know that every once in a while I hear one of those ideas that sought to
injure me all those years, and my immediate reaction is "There it is! Kill

> About the second part of your response, I didn't see
> the point in being rude about someone's suggestion. I
> get that this is a very emotional issue, but isn't
> this list a forum for ideas--looking at what works and
> what doesn't work? Am I mistaken?

A very good point in a perfect world, however I guess we're human beings,
and those of us who came from our schooling with an awareness of the evil
perpetrated on us are probably a bit more sensitive to the advocation of
said schooling excesses then those who had personality types that could play
the game, make the grades and leave a winner.

When rape victims heard former Texas governor Bill Clements say that "rape
is like bad weather; just wait until it's over", they were likely to want to
knock Clements on his ass. On a good day, they might be able to reasonably
explain why rape isn't like bad weather, but every day isn't a good day I


> Julianne Madrid
> --- Rick Stansberger <> wrote:
> > Robert, they already use the behaviorist model in
> > public school, and it
> > substitutes conditioning for real learning. When
> > the rewards and punishments are
> > extrinsic rather than intrinsic, you get conditioned
> > responses, not learning.
> > Conditioning limits a person and makes her/him more
> > predictable and controllable.
> > Learning expands a person's capabilities and makes
> > her/him less controllable.
> > Conditioning is unconscious. Conditioned behaviors
> > and thoughts are automatic,
> > and very difficult to examine. Learned behaviors
> > and thoughts are accessible to
> > the conscious mind and can be modified. They are
> > also generative. Learning
> > begets more learning.
> >
> > So much for the intellectual part. Now for the
> > emotional part. I shuddered when
> > you suggested rat-lab stuff for children and I
> > wanted to knock you on your butt.
> > i don't even know who you are, but 25 years in
> > education have absolutely convinced
> > me of the EVIL of the stimulus-response model when
> > applied ot humans. WE ARE NOT
> >
> > We now return you to our normal, reasoned discourse.
> >
> > Rick
> =====
> Julianne Madrid :)
> "There are two ways to live your life--one is as though
> everything is a miracle, the other is as though nothing is a
> miracle." --Albert Einstein
> __________________________________________________
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