Re: DSM: Re: Finding like-minded people

Julianne Madrid (
Sun, 29 Oct 2000 07:12:05 -0800 (PST)

Rick, the first part of your response is fascinating.
It is completely applicable to what I see happening in
the public middle school I work in. It really comes
down to the idea, I think, that you really don't teach
anyone anything, rather, they take their learning from
you if they choose. I think this is true in my school
where we tend to think the students are "learning,"
but for many of them it is more of a stimulus
response. Of course, there are those who learn
because of their interest, in spite of the

About the second part of your response, I didn't see
the point in being rude about someone's suggestion. I
get that this is a very emotional issue, but isn't
this list a forum for ideas--looking at what works and
what doesn't work? Am I mistaken?

Julianne Madrid

--- Rick Stansberger <> wrote:
> Robert, they already use the behaviorist model in
> public school, and it
> substitutes conditioning for real learning. When
> the rewards and punishments are
> extrinsic rather than intrinsic, you get conditioned
> responses, not learning.
> Conditioning limits a person and makes her/him more
> predictable and controllable.
> Learning expands a person's capabilities and makes
> her/him less controllable.
> Conditioning is unconscious. Conditioned behaviors
> and thoughts are automatic,
> and very difficult to examine. Learned behaviors
> and thoughts are accessible to
> the conscious mind and can be modified. They are
> also generative. Learning
> begets more learning.
> So much for the intellectual part. Now for the
> emotional part. I shuddered when
> you suggested rat-lab stuff for children and I
> wanted to knock you on your butt.
> i don't even know who you are, but 25 years in
> education have absolutely convinced
> me of the EVIL of the stimulus-response model when
> applied ot humans. WE ARE NOT
> We now return you to our normal, reasoned discourse.
> Rick

Julianne Madrid :)
"There are two ways to live your life--one is as though everything is a miracle, the other is as though nothing is a miracle." --Albert Einstein

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