Re: DSM: Re: Finding like-minded people

Rick Stansberger (
Sat, 28 Oct 2000 20:27:12 -0600

Robert, they already use the behaviorist model in public school, and it
substitutes conditioning for real learning. When the rewards and punishments are
extrinsic rather than intrinsic, you get conditioned responses, not learning.
Conditioning limits a person and makes her/him more predictable and controllable.
Learning expands a person's capabilities and makes her/him less controllable.
Conditioning is unconscious. Conditioned behaviors and thoughts are automatic,
and very difficult to examine. Learned behaviors and thoughts are accessible to
the conscious mind and can be modified. They are also generative. Learning
begets more learning.

So much for the intellectual part. Now for the emotional part. I shuddered when
you suggested rat-lab stuff for children and I wanted to knock you on your butt.
i don't even know who you are, but 25 years in education have absolutely convinced
me of the EVIL of the stimulus-response model when applied ot humans. WE ARE NOT

We now return you to our normal, reasoned discourse.


Robert Swanson wrote:

> Yes, finding like minded people is like looking for needles in a haystack. I
> suggested to Heartlight in Oregon that they consider a behaviorist model
> where one is openly accountable for ones actions and measure of success.
> When I did this in a group home the environment (socially and educationally)
> changed dramatically overnight. We coordinated and became successful. Can
> you imagine and comment how such a program might alter the effort in
> starting and running a new school?
> robert swanson
> on 9/30/00 8:22 PM, Melissa Bradford at wrote:
> > Dear Holly,
> > Just my opinion, here, but speaking from experience as someone who has
> > started a Sudbury school, I must say that I would never, ever, consider
> > starting one if there was one already operating successfully only 40 minutes
> > away.
> >
> > I know how hard a commute can be, and how difficult it is to have your
> > children attend a school where their classmates don't live in the same town,
> > but it is nothing compared to the unbelievable difficulties in starting a
> > Sudbury school. Of course, there were no Sudbury schools in the Chicago
> > area at the time when we began working on LVS, (still aren't) so I felt I
> > did not have much of an option. But the impact starting a school has had on
> > my family, especially my children, has been enormous, and, in retrospect,
> > I'm not sure I would have chosen to put them through such difficulties had I
> > known what I was getting myself into. Getting the school started is only
> > the beginning of the challenge. Having it run successfully takes years of
> > struggle. Finding like-minded individuals in your community can be like
> > searching for needles in a hay stack. Many times I have wished I could wave
> > a magic wand and move to a school that is already established.
> >
> > We have families who commute 45 minutes to an hour to attend our school
> > (Liberty Valley School, Joliet, IL) and it is, without question, difficult.
> > Our first year we lived a half hour away from the school. We moved so that
> > we could be closer; only ten minutes away. Still, I would trade my
> > situation for having an established school 40 minutes away any day of the
> > week.
> >
> > Well, if this message doesn't deter you, you are probably just crazy enough
> > to start your own Sudbury school!
> >
> > Best of luck.
> >
> > Melissa Bradford, LVS
> >
> >
> >

Each Life Converges to some Centre --
Expressed -- or still --
Exists in every Human Nature
A Goal --

--Emily Dickinson

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.0b3 on Sun Oct 29 2000 - 23:37:04 EST