Re: DSM: RE: SVS and conservative people


Mike Sadofsky (sadofsky@mediaone.net)
Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:47:22 -0400


My image of Dan's "Yankee conservative" in the context of
SVS (and "A Clearer View" is more of the hardworking
individual who strives for self-sufficiency and expects
others to do the same. This is the individual who works
through adversity and finds a way to make-do with the gains
of his/her labor/intellect/etc. For example, this is the
individual whose concern over the expenditure of public
funds is similar to concern over the expenditure of private
monies. The need must be clear and the benefit obvious
before the expenditure is justified. Literature about the
18th and 19th centuries (particularly about people who
settled new frontiers and built new communities) is filled
with people and stories that fit this profile.

Martin Wilke wrote:
>
> Scott David Gray schrieb:
> >
> > In the modern US, in my experience, the terms "liberal" and "conservative"
> > generally mean two things:
> >
> > 1: People who like the idea of ownership of every resource. The conservatives
> > tend to favor ownership by private individuals and organizations. The liberals
> > tend to favor ownership by a single powerful organization -- the state. This is a
> > new feature; in past centuries, liberals tended to believe in the concept of
> > ownership, while conservatives tended to believe in the concept that some things
> > were too sacred to own.
> >
> > This assumption doesn't concern Sudbury Model Schools per se.
> >
> > 2: People who want some measure of social control. The conservatives tend to
> > prefer that those who exert the social control be overt about it (school uniforms,
> > back to basics). The liberals tend to prefer that those who exert the social
> > control be discreet about it (a guiding hand, programs for bringing the student
> > into the fold). This is a new feature; in past centuries Martin's analysis may
> > have held, and conservatives tended to favor social control while liberals tended
> > to oppose it (then again, those who headed the French Revolution obviously
> > believed in total social control, and were obviously not conservatives).
> >
> > In the field of education modern liberals stand for giving students the _sense_
> > that they have a say in what they learn, even if they are only allowed to choose
> > between alternatives laid out for them in advance. The liberal educationist is
> > more interested in attacking the student's motivation so that the student
> > "chooses" the course already laid out for him/her, while the conservative
> > educationist prefers to attack the details of the student's day and lay out a
> > direct curriculum.
> >
> > The Sudbury model rejects this sort of social control -- and is therefore at odds
> > with both the modern liberal and modern conservative in the US.
>
> Although had the question about "conservative people" in my mind before,
> what actually made me ask it here, was what Daniel Greenberg wrote in
> the free chapter of "A clearer view":
> <They say, "You must have people who are left of center politically
> because it sounds like a leftist-radical place -- empowerment of the
> common man and all that." We have some, but we also have a lot of very
> non-left people here, a lot of old Yankee conservatives.>
>
> And I wanted (and still want) to find out what these conservatives are
> like, whether they have anything in common with the below description.
>
> Martin Wilke
>
> > Martin Wilke wrote:
> >
> > > By "conservative" I mean a more or less authoritarian approach: wanting
> > > to control how a person behaves and what that other person does with
> > > her/his life, being less tolerant, disliking minorities, accepting
> > > whatever anti-liberal means against crime / more or less advocating a
> > > police state and zero tolerance, prefering hierarchical structures
> > > instead of democracy, being ignorant of social injustices and human
> > > rights violations, being against sexual liberty, ...
> > >
> > > Most of these conservative people, but not all, are much in favor of
> > > reducing welfare, and of privatization of everything they can get.
> > >
> > > In the field of education conservatives stand for giving students no say
> > > in what to learn, when, how, where and with whom to learn, they stand
> > > for more testing and standardization, obedience, oppression of
> > > individuality - among other things.
> > >
> > > Maybe this brainstorming helps
> > >
> > > Martin Wilke
> >
> > --
> >
> > --Scott David Gray
> > reply to: sdavid@tiac.net
> > http://www.sudval.org/~sdg
> > ============================================================
> > A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
> >
> > -- Winston Churchill
> > ============================================================



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