Re: DSM: RE: a curious thought about diplomas....

Scott David Gray (
Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:22:44 -0400

The biggest impact came when the State became an integral part of the funding
for Universities. The GI Bill finally ushered in the modern period in which
people are led to believe that a High School diploma is a requirement to enter

This is probably in part because a shift in the demographics in who attended
college. Once the colleges start servicing a new clientele (much more working
class) the Public Schools were able to convince the people that the colleges
actually cared about a High School diploma.

However, it is probably also due in part to the fact that colleges began to
ACCEPT that it was state business who could or could not attend college. They
accepted this reluctantly, but they accepted it because they wanted the big

You may wish to look at the following work:
EDUCATION (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1971)
  Clark Kerr, THE USES OF THE UNIVERSITY (New York: Harper & Row, Harper
Torchbooks, 1966)
UNITED STATES (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1981)

Joseph Moore wrote:

> Sharon wrote:
> > It occurs to me that it is almost certainly the case that the
> > big Ivies (I am particularly thinking of Harvard here given it's
> > age) did , early on, accept many, many applicants without
> > state sanctioned high school diplomas, simply because
> > 1) there really wasn't any such thing
> > 2) many candidates would have been mostly tutored anyway
> >
> > It would be interesting to delve into the evolution of the
> > high school degree - and perhaps provide material usefull for
> > opening up discussions with parents.
> >
> One key is 'state sanctioned' - that whole deal started in the mid-1800's
> and wasn't wide spread before the end of the century, so, yea, the Harvards
> of the world certainly didn't start out looking for state sanctioned
> diplomas.
> St. John's College, 3rd oldest in the country, still requires no SATs,
> diploma, or GPA to get in - you have to 1) be at least 15, and 2) write
> convincing essays in response to a list of questions about why you want to
> be a Johnny. Maybe not Harvard, but a respected school none the less.
> To parents, I run down a list of famous Americans without diplomas or much
> formal schooling - damn near all of 'em! A slight exageration, but certainly
> all of the Founding Fathers and early leaders and writers. Then I refer to
> Churchhill's comment about never letting his schooling get in the way of his
> education. I also like to ask them what they do for a living or enjoy now,
> and what, if anything, their pre-college (or even college!) education has to
> do with it.
> But, finally, when talking to parents, I try to remember to stick to: 1)
> your kids will learn what they need at our school; and 2) they'll be treated
> with respect, and let the rest of the discussion happen in response to their
> stated questions. With the 90% or so who aren't really interested, I just
> hope maybe I've sown some seeds of discontent.
> > Joseph Moore
> >
> >
> >

-- Scott David Gray
Phone: 508/650-9639
ICQ: 27291292

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